Republican presidential candidate and former U.S. President Donald Trump looks on during a Univision Noticias town hall event on October 16, 2024 in Doral, Florida. Photo: Joe Raedle/Getty Images

Senior Columnist
Rob Eshman
24 October 2024

do not follow Atlanticreport I told how former President Donald Trump told a senior aide that he “needs the kind of generals Hitler had.” Omer BartovIsraeli-born professor of Holocaust studies and antisemitism at Brown University. Bartov’s 2018 National Jewish Book Award Winner Anatomy of a Genocide: The Life and Death of a Town Called Buczacz He examined how social conflict can turn into genocide.

Bartov told me that he saw signs of “proto-fascism” in Trump and his supporters, but emphasized that it was important to note the great similarity between German society then and America today: a deep sense of resentment.

“A large segment of the population in America feels betrayed,” he told me. “There is a social and economic malaise in the United States, and Trump is the expression of that, but eliminating it alone will not solve the problem.”

The following conversation about whether Trump fits the historical definition of fascism and what his re-election would mean for American Jews and democracy itself has been edited for length and clarity.

do not follow AtlanticStating that Trump is nostalgic for Hitler’s generals, Vice President Kamala Harris described Trump as a fascist yesterday. Do you agree?

What Trump says reflects two things about him. The first is ignorance, which is not surprising, and the second is an authoritarian choice. He obviously doesn’t know much about Hitler, and he doesn’t know much about Hitler’s generals either.

What doesn’t he understand about Hitler’s generals?

Hitler had generals who were excellent in tactics and strategy, and that’s why they managed to conquer most of Europe and a large part of Russia. However, the same generals agreed to implement Hitler’s racist policies. So when you talk about Hitler’s generals, you’re talking about the generals who did this. of the Wehrmacht It turned into a criminal organization directly under Hitler’s control. The German army was completely part of the genocide.

So Trump says, no matter what, I want people who will do whatever I want.

That’s why I say it’s a combination of ignorance and authoritarianism. He is attracted to Hitler because he thinks Hitler is very powerful and is unaware that the army is actually an instrument of genocide in Hitler’s hands.

Is this Trump’s way of saying that his greatest virtue is loyalty?

Yes like that. It is the mafia approach. Hitler insisted on a personal oath of loyalty that every conscript must fulfill. Trump demands total loyalty and fiercely opposes anyone who, in his opinion, is no longer loyal. This is not just a fascist event. This is the way every self-respecting criminal organization operates.

Meanwhile, we seem to be caught up in the debate about whether he fits the definition of fascist or not.

There are some elements that remind us of fascism. It has a broad movement that is not the same as the traditional Republican Party. It is identified with some kind of equipment, hats and similar things. He is blindly loyal to him. Frankly, it’s full of resentment and rage, which is also part of fascism, and it’s an attempt to really change the entire American political system. But at most you could say he was a proto-fascist. There is no real paramilitary organization. I think Trump would like to have them. There is no real ideology behind it other than a few slogans. So I think he’s trying to create something, but he couldn’t create it. Although it also receives support from non-white elements in society, it is generally an authoritarian, populist and generally white supremacist movement.

But there is another very important similarity between the deeper roots of the rise of fascism and the rise of Trumpism: There is a huge problem of resentment. A large segment of the population feels that they were made promises that were never fulfilled. There is a very nice rhetoric, but social mobility slowed or reversed. Then you combine this with fears about legal or illegal immigration. The Democratic Party could not deal with this or even face this reality. The Trump movement has placed itself squarely in this field of people who feel left behind. This is, first and foremost, a politics of resentment, and this is the best way to explain the rise of fascism.

I was reading Richard Evans’ book Hitler’s PeopleHere he argues that what made German fascism so dangerous was not just Hitler, but the people around him who used his charisma to implement their own policies and agendas. Should we worry less about Trump and more about those around him?

Ian Kershaw, Hitler’s most important biographer, coined the phrase: ” Führer.” Hitler is at the top, he has absolute power, but he is not a particularly effective manager of that power, right? He likes to sleep late. It does not work at all hours of the day. But his real power is that he can decide which person or which organization is preferable to another. It’s especially useful when people don’t want to say what they mean. They just want to imply that. Trump is very good at this. Hitler was very good at this. You don’t want to write, “You must destroy that group.” “You know what we have to do,” you say. People act according to this understanding; This is a study for your leader. You generally know what the leader wants and what exactly you will do, it’s up to you.

So we need to pay attention to the agenda and abilities of the people around Trump?

Definitely.

Given these trends, does Trump’s reelection pose a unique threat to American Jews?

The short answer is yes. I think this could actually fuel the rise of real antisemitism. Those who killed Jews were from the Right, the fascist Right or the Nazi Right. Trump will also amplify elements of antisemitism, and of course Islamophobia and other forms of racism.

Based on what you know about the history of fascism, what will we do if Trump is re-elected?

One might think: OK, Trump will be president and it will be very bad, the economy will sink very low, there will be violence in the streets and then people will realize what a bad choice they made and they will say, ‘I’m going to throw him out in four years.’ First of all, there is no certainty that he will leave within four years. Secondly, even if there is an election, there is no certainty that liberalism will return.